Here’s Tom Dwan’s questions & answers on Two Plus Two forum.
hey ask questions here to have em moved to the other thread where me/ hopefully other ppl who were affiliated w/ ftp will answer. I’ll still try to respond some to the other threads and try to make sure this is a transparent/unbiased thing.
Originally Posted by airdraw
Who was the potential investor? How much was the offer?
i don’t think its appropriate for me to answer who it was (you wouldn’t want future investors being afraid of their name getting out). the talked about offer was sufficient imo to pay player funds + doj, but the money wasn’t there to follow through
Originally Posted by try_hardr_fish
What was the reason for doing it? Thinking they never would get caught or because they dont care about other peoples money?
i think there was just one big mistake in late 2010 (crediting player accounts when people deposited), and then a slew of other mistakes not owning up to the 1st. I really dont believe anyone involved intended to be a criminal, but thats not to justify their ridiculously criminal actions
Originally Posted by 4winds
How much influence on the “bad decision” making did Lederer/Ferguson have? or were they just basically along for the ride while banking millions?
idk. it should’ve been a lot but idk if it was. they were both on the board, and definitely both couldve changed the company if they knew about the hole. im inclined to believe they must’ve found out before april 15th.
together id think they couldve gotten any changes they wanted done to ftp or its structure
Originally Posted by DublingUp
What do you make of the Justice departments accusation that FTP was a Ponzi Scheme for quite a long time?
thats ridiculous wording by them and not true. a ponzi scheme doesnt have a huge source of income. there were many things about ftp in 2011 that were like a ponzi scheme, but ponzi’s schemes dont make tens of millions of dollars a year.
Originally Posted by Joe Tall
Do you know of any of the top tier players, (not in ownership) that received bankroll money from Full Tilt post Black Friday?
Thanks for doing this,
durrrr: i really hope its none.
Originally Posted by pokerstudAA
How much money in total has FTP (or related entities) paid you for being on Team FTP (or friend or w/e)?
Did you receive an ownership % in any FTP entities?
Did you get paid directly through TILTWARE, LLC? or you FTP account?
Assuming all US based FTP owners/players got paid through TITLWARE, LLC – can you provide information about who was the 23 owners of the company?
Thanks for being so open with the community.
didnt have ownership in any ftp entities. pretty sure doj has way more complete info on ownership than i do. i’d need to go back and check exactly how much i was paid, but i assume i can find that with my agents help. its over 1m (but not by too much)
edit: jus put it in ftp account, and i was supposed to play every month.
Originally Posted by JerryGarcia
Are you still friends with Ivey?
Is he planning on showing his face again?
yes, i think he was misled and misguided- but at the time i (and many others) agreed with his actions, and i cant blame him for being misled. i think his reasoning was good (but wrong) and i think his intentions were good.
i might be a bit biased about this b/c i really like the guy, so theres a small chance im being blinded and hes a huge scumbag or w/e, but i really think hes a good dude.
only way he wouldnt show his face is if im wrong about the above.
Originally Posted by hobiejuan1
Tom were you surprised that Howard turned out to be such a scumbag?
i definitely question a lot of howard’s decisions both before and after black friday. he either didnt have enough oversight or was an outright scumbag. i really hope it was the former even though everyone seems to think it was the later
makes a huge difference if he knew about the player fund hole before or after april 15th.
Originally Posted by jweez
In your opinion, if it came down to it, do the FTP board of directors collectively have enough assets to cover all player balances?
lol. i wouldn’t be wasting my time with this thread if they were anywhere near close ;(
Originally Posted by mg0698
Your personal opinion , Do you believe the players will ever receive any of there funds?
ya, the software’s worth a bit. the money owed by us players who they credited funds to are worth something between 0 and a huge amount. i’m inclined to believe they get 20c or so worst case, hopefully more.
Originally Posted by PostflopNoob
Durrrr, would you suggest there is still at least a glimmer of hope to get our money back?
I mean, what comes next? FTP is torn apart, no possible investor? Lederer/Ferguson/Bitar taking money out of their pockets?
id definitely take 20-1 that ftp pays out right now. i think its a bit >10% but wouldn’t take 10-1 b/c i’ve already got an insane amount riding on it.
Originally Posted by thatpfunk
did ray, howard, and chris turn down an offer to sell post BF? do you know their reasons for turning it down? is that why ivey sued?
appreciate your time and honesty in all this mess.
they never turned down an official offer that would cover player funds and legal liability afaik. i really really think i would know if they did. i think there were some things done that were not in the best interest of the players and very much mismanagement. there were quite a few times that they failed to extrapolate that they could probably get a sufficient offer… but this is my opinion and maybe im just biased and hopeful. Their reasoning was bad imo but not completely criminal/flawed.
Originally Posted by ArcadianSky
are you definitely done with full tilt, regardless of what happens from this point forward?
im never going to be a part of another bank or thing which acts like a bank without having it audited. fk getting freerolled.
Originally Posted by ThatDutchGuy
Does Full Tilt owe you money?
i mean i havent gotten paid since black friday, but i also owe them money. i’ll pay what i owe whenever theres a new investor, or a credible liquidator- if not i’ll give the $$ to players in whatever way i think is most fair and also legal.
Originally Posted by dag2
Durrr, Can you post in PDF format a copy of your contract with Full Tilt?
if you give me a good reason why i should do this yea. seems like id be freerolling myself tho.
Originally Posted by NerdAtTheCoolTable
What is the player contract for someone who is a sponsored pro of FTP?
varied a lot player to player- hopefully some other sponsored pros will come in here and mention theirs. i feel a little less required to mention mine since im giving all the $$ back, but i feel like people who arent giving all $$ back at least owe the information of what their contract was to the community. feel free to explain why my reasoning’s wrong and if u convince me ill go into more detail.
Originally Posted by smooth101
Hey, this actually answers my question as well.
But I have a very some interesting questions that I do not know if you have seen:
“durrrr did you knowingly get paid from FTP with player deposits? If you knew that the deposits were not coming in for months did you question where the money was coming from? Are you still planning on committing one million dollars to players that are unable to collect?”
i mean cmon, would i be doing this thread if i was knowingly getting paid with player deposits instead of sitting in costa rica w/ a buncha blow?
obviously that would’ve made me feel terrible and i wouldve insta-quit ftp and gone whistleblower if they didnt shut down at least us deposits had i found out about a gaping player fund hole pre black-fri.
Originally Posted by hussainsajwani
in your opinion if ftp fails to pay the full amount to players, what ihmo should the fair consequences for the mgt involved
i don’t think i should be publicly saying that, im not a judge. i think there should be ramifications for sure for anyone who knew about the hole and sanctioned it.
Originally Posted by Ivan_Drago45
Durrrr, you referred to “one big mistake in 2010” as the initial cause of all of this. Can you elaborate on what this mistake actually was? I saw where you said it was due to crediting player accounts when they couldn’t get the money, but I don’t understand how doing this once can take a multi-hundred-million-dollar company and put it in the red.
they never stopped doing it from late 2010- read the doj report
Originally Posted by 97Suited
can/will you tell us how much money you owe fulltilt ? and why you took out a loan with them instead of using your own money ?
Thanks again for this thread and actually talking and explaining things
they didnt uphold their end of the contract (i explicitly wanted to be able to play all poker tv shows), and ftp loaning me $$ along with letting me slack off work wise barely kept me ok staying there. I also (regrettably) liked a bunch of the owners (some of them i dont now some i still do some undecided). i owe them less than the total number they paid me but i’ll pay both back in similar fashion (the same unless theres some legal issue). if a deal is close to being signed i’ll post my $$ in escrow, or if the management is changed i’ll ship it tomorrow.
Originally Posted by K_2
Tom are you considering buying the ftp software?
haha its worth way more $$ than i have. if u can get a bank to give me a loan id buy it for 20m in a heartbeat.
Originally Posted by ivvaen
Do you know how much $$$, if any, is left in the company at this point?
i could guess but dont think its advantageous to at this point. my guess wouldnt be that accurate fwiw.
Originally Posted by AlwaysDrawing
If you want to be transparent, you should post the contract, so people know you’re actually paying back what you received.
couldn’t i just have like 20 respected people from the community see it/ see my email showing it was untampered etc. jus seems like im opening up an unnecessary can of worms for myself. plus i kinda deserve 2p2s trust once i pay back over 1m i’d think . that and being able to sleep better are about all i get out of it lol
Originally Posted by FoldNow13
durrrr….there is another thread from a month or two ago called “dwan and galfond claims center.” since you did not show up in that thread can we post here to get in line for claims?
or u could go through that thread since those people would be considered “first” in line
any payout will be done in a fair and transparent way. there is no line there will be no line and no preferential treatment. everyone will have the same (or as close as possible depending on costs etc) chance at their $$.
Originally Posted by EYESCREW
Are you aware of any high stakes players depositing onto Full Tilt by directly giving cash to Howard Lederer or Phil Ivey??? This is relevant because it would be nice to know where that cash ended up.
Much respect to you for taking the time to make this thread and answer as many questions as possible…
id assume i wouldve known about it if this happened b/c there were times i wanted $$ on ftp and had lotsa bellag chips. idk of it ever happening but there are rumors. i’d tend to believe no, or if it did prolly back in the day. more likely it was just people trading cash for ftp (and howard/phil/ whoever else having ftp $$ in their own account).
Originally Posted by Rake_Isn’t_Funny
Were you ever offered equity in the company? Was there any type of profit sharing stipulated in your contract?
Reading some of your posts, I get the impression that you weren’t paid the millions and millions everyone thought. I think a lot of people assumed that a lot of the FTP redpros (you, Ivey, etc) had some sort of stake in the company.
Can you elaborate on how your contract was setup?
Thanks, and GL
i didn’t have any profit sharing in my contract (i’ll dig it up to verify its possible there was a crazy negligible amount). was never offered equity by the company, altho there were occasional times individuals mentioned they might sell shares (happened regularly ish before black fri- i dont think anything suspicious).
Originally Posted by timmay28
Would you accept an interview with an investigative show like 60 minutes?
ya i’ll do interviews w/ anyone who wants.
Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK
Tom, why did Phil Ivey take loans from FTP? How much money (if any) does he intend to play back to players? Does he have money to repay players?
not my job to mention people’s personal details, im sorry. my reasons were just to have more liquidity/ no liquidity probs (when ppl owed $$ or was coming from somewhere etc) and id assume most other people’s were the same. some definitely borrowed $$ they couldn’t repay tho. i really don’t think phil was the 2nd group.
Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK
Do you know of other pros who intend to pay back money? (I understand if you don’t want to name them)
a lot of the owners have mentioned they’d like to, or they wanted to guarantee money etc. im inclined to believe a lot of them legitimately wanted to. i dunno how many actually will.
Originally Posted by PartyGirlUK
What are your thoughts on Ray Bitar?
im not too fond of him lately. haven’t talked to him since apr 17th or so, but its not for lack of trying. I dont think he intended to steal or cost people money fwiw (not to justify his actions).
Originally Posted by Systolic
This is wrong. Tom is trying to make sure he doesn’t fall under public scrutiny as a result of all of this it seems..
As such he should be willing to answer the tough personal questions, and he is doing the right thing.
lol aren’t i already under public scrutiny? i’ll answer any questions i think are relevant, or that a majority of people seem to think are. any that don’t fall in that category i’ll have a discussion as to why they might be relevant. If you ask me for some big fishes’ contact info tho, or my personal phone number, or when i took my last sh it im not jus gonna pony up unless im convinced its either relevant or not bad for me. speaking of not bad for me- last sh it ws 3ish hrs ago
The contract should be posted to show that durrrr did or did not have an ownership interest in FTP fwiw.
if i did im pretty sure the doj will send me to jail… and im pretty sure they’ll subpoena a ton of contracts.
Originally Posted by Sven2812
thanks a lot for doing this.
If u say it was a really bad decision to credit ppl’s accounts with virtual money without being able to get money from their bank accounts, u mean they knew about this problem and just “decided” to not do anything about it, cause this seems like super-retarded to me.
the big question is who knew about it, and when they found out. this is what people should be asking.
Originally Posted by G13
is it feasible that the FTP shareholders will now pay back the money they owe, and that an investor will be able to pick up FTP for a lot less than originally required to pay back all players, and get the site back up and running under new management and possible rebranding?
i think most of the people who owe ftp $$ would’ve been willing to pay it back at just about any point if it meant a deal getting done. Some were eager to pay it back but didnt want it to go to hands which might misuse it.
Originally Posted by fkmyscreename
sorry if u missed this post, i feel this is relevent tho, i mean it doesnt look good on ftp owners if they paid jungle off due to the amount he had tied up….
but thx for answering questions
ftp wasn’t involved in the deal with jungle at all
Originally Posted by insidemanpoker
What is your relationship with Ivey right now? What do you think he is worth and do you expect him to give a lot of it to a FT payback fund? What about PA? Anyone else you know will do this?
As an aside, I don’t really get the controversy over dividing your payout. Isn’t it 100% clear what you should do? Just put in a general fund where people are getting their money back based on the amount in the fund relative to liabilities. So if you are giving 1mm, then everyone is basically getting like .3% thanks to you. No more fair way than that.
thats only if the liquidator is a good one. sometimes they take ridiculous fees or make crazy decisions. for example say people from italy would be required to pay a 10$ processing fee. clearly then i should draw and pay x% of ppl 100% on the dollar (instead of sending some people 2$ and it costing the ‘fund’ 12). if there’s 0 processing fee i should just pay everyone their 1/2cent per dollar or w/e. likely the reality will be somewhere in between, and i will decide whats the best and most fair, or if thats not abundantly clear i’ll leave it up to a popular vote of sorts. it’ll be as transparent a process as possible.
Originally Posted by DannyDuberstein
How will this be collected?
well the huge issue is that its very hard to be collected, so its not worth much. but if someone had a legit claim that every us citizen owed them 1$ u’d still happily pay 100k for it hoping to bink off some new policy or w/e, even though u clearly wouldn’t pay 200m. again the reality will be somewhere in the middle.
Originally Posted by binksy
Kudos for doing this.When was the last time you spoke to/saw Howard, Chris & Rafe?
haven’t talked to chris, rafe or ray since black friday (texted with ray for a few days following so april 18ish or w/e for him).
to howards credit he’s been answering questions and answering the phone etc. throughout. that does make me trust him way more and think the chance hes clean (or at least thinks he is) is much higher than most people think.
Originally Posted by NoahSD
You’ve said a couple of times that the hole/shortfall/backlog and its aftermath were what brought down FTP. I don’t think this is the only thing that happened. When all is said and done, the shortfall will likely cost the company $119M. It likely peeked at around $160M before they started collecting (or a bit after, since they continued to accept these deposits AFTER they started collecting…).
The DOJ says that FTP owed players $390M in March but only had $60M on hand. I would guess that the shortfall was in the $140Mish range at that time, though I don’t know for sure. That still leaves $190M unaccounted for. Note that this is before the 4/15 seizures. Where did that money go?
i thought it was the shortfall all along. i think the seizures (and voluntary ones in europe) were another decent amount. im really curious where u heard the 140 as i was always led to believe it was more. i think a bunch was siezed but still not 190.
edit: we sure the doj’s number is right? i was told a slightly smaller one by a bunch of people at ftp. maybe the doj is including ftp point liability or something like that?
Originally Posted by Mike Johnson
I am very impressed that you are doing this. Another question.
It is rumored that FTP reported payment processor Daniel Tzvetkoff to US law enforcement authorities after he stole from them, which may have been what led to the Black Friday indictments.
Is this true and if so, who was specifically responsible for doing this?
no idea but ive heard this a lot too
Originally Posted by inthepub5
Durrr what was you opinion of the inital lawsuit launced by Phil Ivey vs FTP, what was he told to make him drop it.
Is it likely that he is heavily implicated in all of this and that this point was made to him?
he was convinced that the potential investor who i previously mentioned who was looking at the company from when the la times story ran (and a little before) until 2ish weeks ago was likely to buy the company. he was some part misled some part unlucky and some part wrong. how big those parts are is a question im still searching to answer.
Originally Posted by SuperJez
From the official DOJ amended document released today
“In or about March of 2008, Bitar and Lederer advised a Full Tilt Poker
employee that Full Tilt Poker could represent to players that Full
Tilt Poker kept all of its player funds in segregated accounts and
that funds would be available for withdrawal by players at all
times. Subsequently, and based in part on this information, Full
Tilt Poker created several form e-mail templates to be used by
Full Tilt Poker to respond to player inquiries about the security
of their funds. For example:
A few examples follow in the DOJ document, here is one they say Bitar and Lederer together made to send to players
“Unlike some companies in
our industry, we completely understand and
accept that your account money belongs to you,
not Full Tilt Poker”
YOU CAN SEE THESE ON PAGE 63/64 OF THE NEW DOCUMENT
So he just decided to outright lie to players about our money, absolutely not as clean as you suggest, you still trust him?
im pretty sure they did have all the money in ‘cash’ as of 2008. their definition of cash might’ve been a little off, but was still close enough to only warrant a slap on the wrists. saying it was segregated accounts and being wrong is pretty criminal, but the doj didn’t include that statement- can someone dig up that thread? I was inclined to believe it was segregated accounts, and never would’ve joined with ftp had i not believed this (and would’ve left at any time i found out obv).
i definitely don’t trust howard, just like i wouldn’t anyone in the position hes in. i question everything he tells me- but so far i’ve found he hasn’t outright lied to me once. he might’ve danced around a few questions and definitely told a few half truths, but no outright lies.
im still very unhappy with a ton of his actions, and am very disappointed (i took my dad to meet him since my dad was in vegas and i had to pickup uniforms n stuff from howard before the uso tour we went on apr 8-14 and didnt really have a bad thing to say about the guy other than him being a nit). ive thought of this a few times and it makes me feel pretty sick every time.
That said i know he feels super terrible that all this happened, but that only means so much.
Originally Posted by TheGreaseFire
When did you become aware of the fact that deposits to Full Tilt were not going through but were still being credited to player accounts?
not sure. i found out about the player hole in late april, don’t remember when i found out the reason but it was sometime in the next few days or week. I remember being super disgusted. Was with my gf and one of my best friends and they both can attest how insanely in shock i was upon hearing (i didn’t explain to them, but they were able to guess a rough idea jus based on the place and my face)
Originally Posted by NoahSD
These numebrs are before the amount seized. The DOJ seized less than $60M on Black Friday. I’m working on confirming the exact number so I can make it public.
The 390M is for March. The number is lower now because of the withdrawals that happened between April 15th and June 29th.
i probably have a number after a bunch of withdrawls then (after black fri). its way more manageable imo, and pretty silly the southern district wouldnt spell this out (im still really happy with them for today tho).
Originally Posted by Turb0Licious
Maybe you missed mine in the fury here. Appreciate you doing this, it’s the right thing to do.
Obvi you won’t disclose a specific amount you owe FTP, (if you did, I didn’t see it) nor should you at this time. However, the bolded just seems all to familiar with what owners were doing. It just seems like the owners and even Team FTP (ones who borrowed money, you’re not the only one) used FTP and player funds as their own personal piggy bank. Sure FTP had a lot coming in and going out, however I feel this whole player fund, missing money debacle wouldn’t have surfaced if BF didn’t happen and FTP suddenly had to come up with US Player funds and couldn’t – – Your comment on this please Tom.
a ton of people borrow $$ in the poker world, and a huge amount of ftp pros borrowed at one time or another. it makes sense that if i showup to a random ept ftp would have enough cash on hand to cover my buyin, since they have so many other pros that theyll always be trying to convince to go. likewise with tv cashgames etc. that said the let the loans get a bit out of hand, and the guy before rich who was managing it was pretty ridiculous in some of his loans. rich seemed to do a pretty decent and managed job at keeping the cost to ftp way down and the longterm profit up a bit.
for example obviously ftp should be fine loaning me 50k if i was getting paid in 2 days by them, but obviously they shouldnt loan people 3m$ who they were paying 200k/year. they were unfortunately very close to the 2nd one, and should’ve been somewhere in between.
Originally Posted by conebone69
tell us your honest opinion durrr. now that almost the whole FTP lineup has been officially indicted by the DOJ, US player funds are barely their concern anymore correct? lederer/fergusons number 1 priority is keeping their ass out of federal pound me in the ass prison.
earlier you said there was only a 5% chance we’d all get to see our bankrolls back, does that mean you guys have no investors/aren’t in discussions with people save all our bankrolls anymore?
the only way the ftp lineup gets out of it is if us (and european) player funds are returned. so the doj finally has clearly put their priorities in line. I said i’d take 5%- i think the real chance is over 10% to get 100c/$ (or at least 98/99- mebbe some accounting trickery), but i already have a huge % networth bet on it.
Originally Posted by wags51
Durrrr – not gonna ask you when you took your last sh** but with all this craziness no chance of you fetting in trouble right?
i dunno. i’ve been advised a bunch not to post here b/c its opening up a legal can of worms, but im fully convinced i’ve done nothing wrong and that that’ll holdup in a court (hopefully the 12 people i get werent the type who failed jury duty).
Think it’d be hard for anyone to make a case since i owned no % and am paying back every $ i made. if i owned a % i’d be pretty ***** tightlipped, altho id like to think i’d have guaranteed a large amount of $$ already.
Originally Posted by yesright
Maybe I am being to harsh but that sounds like a convenient excuse considering he only made it known today that he owes FTP money.
That begs the question If he felt the FTP management were untrustworthy with money he owed FTP (or any money) then why did he not walk away from FTP?
Why stay and endorse them with your silence. (or even the promise of 1 million if FTP didnt pay!)
So far the common thread with all these FTP “pros” is they were paid multiple millions yet it was never enough.
So far we have Ivey, Benyamine and Tom Dwan who alledgely owe FTP multiple millions.
We dont know about the rest.
Quite a few have houses for sale, guess we can draw our own conclusions.
i stopped wearing ftp badge in early may (i wore to ept madrid b/c i thought a deal was right about to be signed and figured id try n not be selfish and cause anything that could mess it up).
Originally Posted by HitShappens
Tom, I’ll echo others and say thanks for stepping up and taking questions.
You say here:
“to howards credit he’s been answering questions and answering the phone etc. throughout. that does make me trust him way more and think the chance hes clean (or at least thinks he is) is much higher than most people think.”
A few posts later you say this:
“i definitely don’t trust howard, just like i wouldn’t anyone in the position hes in. i question everything he tells me- but so far i’ve found he hasn’t outright lied to me once. he might’ve danced around a few questions and definitely told a few half truths, but no outright lies.”
Not sure which way you are leaning. I myself give anyone the “innocent until proven guilty” nod. What seems DAMN incriminating may look completely different once all the facts are known(if that ever happens…). But since you are the closest person the general poker playing public has access to, I’d like to know what your position is on HL, CF, and the others based on what you know.
its hard to trust anyone whos on the board of a company that is in the process of defrauding people for hundreds of millions. i trust howard way more than id expect to trust anyone in this situation, but i still question everything he says. haven’t seen a lie yet, although quite a few dodges and some half-truths.
Originally Posted by RazzSpazz
Definitely understand your not wanting to name the investor. Can you at least say if this investor was strongly associated with an American casino gaming company? For example, Steve Wynn, Benny Binion, etc. A simple, Yes American casino related or No, not American casino related would be sufficient. Thanks.
not gonna answer anymore questions on details of investors jus for game theory balance . kind’ve need to keep those indetities private. but no the one who was very interested for 2months that i mentioned before wasnt related to any american casino i know of.
Originally Posted by yesright
But you never walked away or announced you were leaving FTP.
Most felt some Pros didnt wear the FTP patches for no other reason than they didnt want to be hassled at the poker table by people owed money.
Why were you completely silent if you felt the FTP management were untrustworthy. (to pay them money you woed FTP)
Why stay if you felt they couldnt be trusted with the money you owed FTP.
Can you state for the record exactly how much you owe FTP.
I think its pretty important for context.
i stayed b/c i thought the management was very incentivized to pay the players (if not they go to jail). i still believe that and don’t regret that choice. i think it would’ve been very selfish to leave.
i owe ftp less than i was paid, don’t really wanna go into more detail unless u give me a reason why it matters or a lot of people seem to think it does. to me it seems like it only opens up a can of worms for myself while doing no-one else any good.
Originally Posted by NoahSD
Stars didn’t accept echecks from states where there weren’t processors to accept echecks.
(This isn’t strictly true. Stars had a very tiny shortfall caused by screwing this up on the boundary–e.g. a payment processor pulls out of a state and a few deposits squeeze through that aren’t processed. But, it’s basically true.)
can u post a buncha ur replies/ questions in the other thread too. i dont think it should be about me- just about getting as much info out as possible, and you clearly have a lot. also that will hopefully encourage others to join in as well.
Originally Posted by inkognegro
Do you plan to leave fulltilt to join another poker room, given their breach of contract(i.e not paying you since BF etc)?…do you see full tilt as a sinking ship?and if so when do you plan to jump off?
wanna know my river checkraising range too? sorry i wanna keep this stuff private for now unless i see a good reason for answering
Originally Posted by Already.Dead
Most people here are US centric. You think the FTP story ended April 15th.
Durrrr admitted he knew the truth early May // AGCC suspended FTP license June 29th.
During many weeks, Durrrr covered up the truth while non US players kept playing/uploading funds to FTP, which was running as usual in Europe and other parts of the world, with no chance at all to retrieve their money.
By doing so, Durrrr became part of the FTP scam.
Feel free to give your take on that.
i wasn’t sure what to do about this for the whole time after i found out. i was under nda so my only option was going to the southern district (and probably having tilt shut down). i thought many times about this and thought the likelihood of tilt paying out was high enough, and the new deposits small enough, that it was worth waiting.
these situations aren’t super cut and dry- look at greece as an example. also imagine if people ran scared in 08 and busted bank of america or jpm (prolly woulda been good but still). that said people should’ve mentioned the shortfall at aig earlier. it was a really complicated decision, and i sought a lot of advice and thought about it a lot.
Originally Posted by hotmark777
Hi tom, its grascious of you to do this
I hope no dirt gets rubbed on you, because you come off as a decent guy and have been nothing but great for poker and even 2p2 community.
im kinda drunk, and have had a pretty rough day (even tho im happy w/ the news longterm its still been a lot to deal w/ the last 6ish hrs), but u’ve been around forever so here goes… for other posts ima wait till tomorrow prolly (unless i answer in a drunken stupor).
ok so i wrote that before reading, and im way too drunk to give an appropriate answer (only had 2 drinks but im pretty stressed out think thats why).
i’ll try… some points- no promises
Originally Posted by hotmark777
What strikes me as surpsising is how people like mike the mouth, yourself, brandon adams and others involved with ftp were SO SURE that funds were secure and that things were being run properly, while i am sure a bit of investigative work by anyone would have lead to different conclusions a long time ago (i mean just knowing about player loans sounds absolutely absurd, and that should have set off numerous alarms that there was no proper control or management) I am sure you heard stories of the sort prior to this especially that they were loaning out to you as well. So why in the world would you pledge YOUR OWN MONEY having nothing to gain in return if ftp defaulted? And its even a dumber move by jman because he wasnt even associated with ftp, and obviously didnt know enough to be so certain that things were alright
1) i just assumed (think i was told or heard but dont remember exact) that ftp got audited regularly, like any other 9/10figure company would. pretty ridiculous that they wouldnt
2) ftp had a ridiculously profitable business (that they didnt operate in the right way, but even with their poor management it still made a lot). their revenues were so insane (this is verified info im talking about- altho obv i cant go into detail, nda ;( ). the only way to fk up this awesome business was to not have the player funds- it was inconceivable to me that they’d do this.
Originally Posted by hotmark777
Do you know the feelings, whereabouts, of the other big pros like gus patrick juanda etc… what they are doing and how they are going to handle this latest news? how dependant were these big pros on ftp as some people might have suggested with ivey’s way of life?
3) the people u mention are some of the few i still think pretty highly of at ftp, not gonna go into their personal lives, i’m sorry. i don’t agree with all their decisions, but i also dont claim to be omniscient, and maybe im wrong, its not my business to mention details that i only know from being their friends
4) ivey was (imo) less dependent than some of the others, but it just seems like more b/c of timing among other things.
Originally Posted by hotmark777
are you allowed to play on other sites as of now? are you going to? have you been playing poker at all since april 15
5) i dont think anythings stopping me, they’d have zero shot of enforcing the faux-contract which they already breached 89234 times, but i thought it’d be in bad taste before today. in the near future i’ll prolly be on other sites.
Originally Posted by hotmark777
finally what do you think are the chances that anyone plays on ftp again? how dead is the company in your eyes as of now? (is it a good idea to unistall the program finally)
6) way better than most tend to think. they have a good business and a good model. there was 1 ridiculous decision and a buncha choices to not expose it and make further poor decisions.
Originally Posted by hotmark777
Finally for people who still play on other poker sites, after your experience with ftp what do you suggest be done so that we can be sure that our funds are safe in those other companies? what do us players have to demand so that we can sleep at ease at night? I have always thought it would be good of pokerstars to get a big four auditor on board which would always give it more credibility.
7) i think all poker sites should have at least yearly big 4 audits. i’ll insist on this if i ever sign w/ a new one
Originally Posted by hotmark777
Best of luck to you, hope things turn out as good as possible. hope to see you in action again soon
ty. always thought u were a callbox fwiw .”
Originally Posted by Money4Aces
is Durrrr’s Q&A session over? I know he left off last night to shtfaced to continue but have any mods been intouch with him in regards to getting this thread going again?
sorry been a really busy day, had to wake up at 630 for the fox news interview, and then hopped on a flight outta vegas. have done a buncha interviews today and will continue to do more- but not planning on leaving this thread out. rj pmd me a buncha questions that people raised and i’ll answer those now.
Originally Posted by tdomeski
How is this possible? I mean, a bunch of people knew of this (high stakes players, low stakes players, railbirds, etc). I’m in a fairly large poker circle, and I’d guess that 75% of them knew about this echeck deposit issue that FTP was having.
Hell, there is a huge thread here in one of the busiest subforums of the busiest poker forum on the internet about the whole thing.
How could you all directly involved with FTP not know aobut this until after BF? I don’t get it.
i wired them $$ i think twice in 2011, but i think i had heard of the check deposit issue. that said the amount of $$ ftp was dropping in revenue was staggering (and i had a rough guess on this but it was even more than i thought), and i figured a few million here or there in processor issues weren’t a big deal. Don’t remember ever seeing that thread.
Originally Posted by Fogofwar
I’m not sure if this had been asked yet, but do you feel like the high stakes poker scene would have never exploded the way it did if some of the top guys in ownership never got paid what they did?
I feel like some of them never would have been able to beat a 10/20nl game let alone 1k/2k if they were not kinda freerolling with the money they were getting.
P.S. thanks for doing what you are atm
theres a few things that caused the huge explosion in nosebleeds online, and while ftp pros having a ton of extra cash obviously didn’t hurt (especially the bad ones), it wasn’t the main reason. i don’t really wanna extrapolate on these kinda things b/c I’m pretty private about my thoughts on the highstakes economy/fish etc- but I’m sure other highstakes players wouldn’t mind answering this- maybe someone like jman or stinger will jump in n give ya a better answer
seems really silly of AGCC to pull ftp’s license. they’re trying to cover their own asses here since they shoulda been on the line for making sure the player $$ was there and never allowing this to happen. pulling the AGCC license is definitely not in the best interest of the players, and the chance of a deal getting done is plenty high enough for AGCC to give ftp more time.
again not to sanction or condone ftp’s ridiculous actions- but the doj and agcc both fk’d up pretty bad also
Originally Posted by Karak
What level of involvement did Team Full Tilt Pros (such as yourself) have in the day-to-day operations of FTP? What knowledge did you have of internal workings and were you ever consulted on business/operational decisions?
What about just limiting the above questions to Howard and Chris? What level of involvement did THEY have and what part in the daily operations of the $$-side of FTP did they take?
if i had involvement in day to day- there would’ve never been multi-entry tournaments (or maybe 1-2/wk), there would’ve been a fix for the bum hunters (i’ve told ftp and stars both this and after much pressure ftp was finally about to implement it), and many other issues. that said the management did build the company to one with over a billion valuation (in my eyes- in optimistic people it might’ve been higher for longer) from basically nothing, so they clearly did many things right.
chris always seemed way less interested than seemed rational to me- but i guess that’s just the way he wanted to live his life, or possibly the image he wanted to portray. howard was trying to limit his involvement in the last year or two, i dunno how effective he was at this but he seemed to be distancing himself a bunch.
Originally Posted by sauce123
If this has been asked obv don’t answer again…
Why did you think holding back important information with regard to FTP was the best way to get the players paid ?
i thought the likelihood of players being paid was very high, and also i had 0 option to disclose any information about numbers or specifics unless it was to the southern district. if you look at all my replies in this thread and assume u didn’t read the doj material (or have that as a background) u’d be really pissed that it seemed i was beating around the bush and ignoring the elephant in the room. doj fixed that issue for me. between the la times article and 2weeks ago i didn’t want to spook the potential investor who seemed very serious (and kept thinking a decision was days away for 2months).
Originally Posted by FishyOnADishy
Is that the best you can do? FTP’s ‘ridiculous’ actions? Stealing hundreds of millions of $ is merely ‘ridiculous’?
i don’t think its fair to pick apart my wording like that. obviously i’m super pissed about everything ftp did, and super disgusted they don’t have the player funds, i’m merely pointing out that doj and AGCC shouldn’t get a free pass just because they were less bad.
Originally Posted by SuperJez
Two questions for durrrr thanks again
First of all yesterday he posted this in the thread,
My first question :
What makes you say this? Did the DOJ basically tell FTP to pay the players or they will hand out more indicments? Did they say they would not seek the extradition of Bitar if the players are paid or something? Please clarify on how management knew that paying the players/not playing the players would have a direct effect on their chances of facing jail.
My second question :
Directly after blackfriday up until a couple of weeks ago FTP mostly kept everyone silent. There were a couple of leaks tho, you tweeted a couple of things, Mike Matusow came on QJ and slipped into some FTP related convo etc. However a couple of weeks ago this changed from occasional slips to TOTAL SILENCE FROM EVERYONE ASSOCIATED AT ALL WITH FTP. How on earth did they manage this? Poker Players are freedom lovers and stopping them talking when they want to is hard enough at the best of times let alone stopping EVERYTHING. What pressure did they use to do this?
my regular phone broke, so only my backup phone had twitter (i dunno the pw).
as far as them going to jail- a huge amount of citizens (who can vote) are going to lose $$ if ftp goes bust, a bit of extrapolation puts management in court and they have a hard case to fight if the players aren’t paid.
Originally Posted by B T R O M Z
Durrrr, if u somehow get jail time will u consider paying that guy to go to jail for u?
Originally Posted by Shuffle
People keep dancing around the topic, but I’d still like to know why the pros were getting “loans” with depositor money.
i’d assume none (or at least the vast majority) of the pros knew that the depositor $$ wasn’t safe/preferably held in escrow
Originally Posted by CaliStyle
My friend’s cousin is a red pro and successful live player from California. He was told that he got info a week ahead of time and that he should cash out. I believe he got all his money out. I am not going to give names. I will ask my friend to get confirmation.
i’ll pay u 5k for proof of this (even if u need me to keep it private). this would be an enormous game changer.
durrrr’s interview w/Fox